Nitrome Wiki talk:Forum Policy
Policy feedback It looks okay so far (Is this all you plan on putting here?), but it seems more fitted to be "guidelines" than an actual "policy". 17:54, April 24, 2015 (UTC) More policy feedback Having read this page fully, I just don't agree with making some of what is listed here a "policy" though. More like guidelines? *The "Rules" section: seems more applicable to admins than users in general. It's also very jumbled together; not all discussions and proposals need votes. I also dislike how it goes against what Nitrome Wiki was originally going for, focusing on the content of the points and treating it more as a discussion rather than trying to force such a small community whose members rarely participate in conversations to blindly "vote". *A thumbnail for the text input field seems like trickery. Not even sure if you need an image for this because the buttons and some additional coding can help point users in the right direction for where to type to add a topic. *"Creating a forum topic": Yeah this is mostly common sense and falls more in the line of suggestions rather than making it a policy. It's also kind of random. Also, creating rules for how to ask questions? Does this apply to the casual Nitrome Discussions forum as well? Finally, I remember writing a similar policy page that focuses specifically on discussions. I'm going to be honest here; having a policy on discussions makes more sense than having a policy on forums. We don't really want to set strict rules on how to ask questions, especially since the forums encompass three very different topics. I'd prefer to just have a page that focuses on wiki centred discussion rather than a forum policy. If we keep this page I'd like to see it focus on forum etiquette instead of instructions on how to ask questions and archive pages. Otherwise, just make it a blog post. That could be interesting. 09:12, April 25, 2015 (UTC) :-I'm fine with changing this to something like "Nitrome Wiki:Forum Guidelines". -Not once in the Rules section does it say that users have to vote on Discussions. Discussions are discussions, proposals are proposals. -If you would like to code in the button to replace the picture, I would appreciate it.-I felt the "How to write a topic" was kind of needed so if someone goes in and spams the Forums with pictures of dragons and swear words (that was a completely random example off the top of my head) there is somewhere we can point to that says "hey, follow these guidelines please." :I'm not quite sure I see what the problem is here with Discussions vs. Proposals. Some of these rules (guidelines, whatever) are written for proposals and are labeled as such. They do not apply to Discussions. Where on this page do you see "how to archive pages"? Lastly, if you didn't want this page to exist then why did you not say anything when I said something to you about writing it two times in the past, or yesterday when you were literally in the chat with me as I was writing it? 21:26, April 25, 2015 (UTC) ::Oh gee I don't know. Maybe because I did when I finished writing it? You know, the one you completely ignored because it wasn't about forums but the general scope of "discussions", which includes forums? And I don't have as brilliant a photographic memory as you, princess. ::I think your definition of discussions vs proposals was different from mine...back when Bluefire was still active and making lots of proposals, he pushed the idea of using discussion to reach an agreement rather than voting. The point was something along the lines of emphasising that the reasoning behind each decision mattered more than just rallying your friends to agree with you because you ask nicely. Discussions should be used to reach a general consensus. ::"How to write a topic" was kind of needed so if someone goes in and spams the Forums with pictures of dragons and swear words (that was a completely random example off the top of my head) there is somewhere we can point to that says "hey, follow these guidelines please." ::No kidding. Take a look at it though; the section starts out with instructions on how to create a topic, then suddenly jumps into the policies in its subsections, all of which have nothing to do with "Creating a forum topic". Sure, I can get behind having a general policy that says "be a good person". But Proposals and Questions have nothing to do with spam. They're just telling users to be concise and "use this template", both of which aren't necessarily mandatory to add in a page that addresses forum policies. If a user isn't concise in their proposal, it shouldn't be against the rules. Same goes for if a user doesn't use the vote templates. Perhaps that's not what you're going for, but it definitely gives off that implication. ::On a more considerable note, why not just use Project:Discussions as our "forum policy"? Or at least edit and add sections to your liking there, since that one's more fleshed out in terms of discussions, which is most likely the reason for the forums policy. Consider linking it on this page, then? 08:33, April 27, 2015 (UTC) :::Okay, as we can both see an angry fight debate is brewing here and none of us wants that. I think this whole discrepency between us is largely in fault of mis-interpretations. :::First off, it looks like me leaving the wiki and coming back for a week and then leaving again has not helped me in this situation. I honestly completley forgot about the existance of those messages. I forgot that I responded to them. So yes, it looks like we did have a conversation about this before. Oops. No, I did not "ignore" the Nitrome Wiki:Discussions page because it was about all wiki discussions, it just came at a bad time. To my fault, I never did read the page until just now (even though you sent it to me last week again, reminding me of its existance). :::Secondly, our definitions of discussions and proposals have been different. I have thought of discussions as just conversations, not meant to reach some sort of goal or verdict (For example, bouncing ideas around for a new color scheme of the wiki). I considered proposals to be a talk with the intent of making something happen or making a decision on a certain topic. I disagree with having discussions rather than voting. One reason being that sometimes someone has proposed something that I totally agree with. I like how they proposed it, and just want to show my support for the idea rather than having to elaborate on what they said or give some lengthy explanation as to why I agree. Now none of this means that when using the voting process you can't discuss your point of view or make a lengthy explanation as to why you agree or disagree, it just means you don't have to (so by all means, write as long of a discussion as you want as to what you think needs improving about a proposal). Also, I don't think that people "blindly voting" has really been a problem. However, if you really are worried about people going out and rallying an un-informed army, we can make a rule against promoting your forum view on other people's talk pages, chat, etc. :::As for the "Creating a Forum Topic" section, I can see the way you read this and then I can see the way I wrote it intending it to be read. This was just a poorly organized section I wrote, and I think that if I re-arrange some stuff it won't look so much like it is jumping from instructions to policies. :::Finally, your suggestion to use Project:Discussions as our "forum policy". I had stuff I was going to say on this, but I think I will save this last part of the discussion until after we have straightened out if we are going to proposal voting or discussions. 04:06, April 30, 2015 (UTC) :::Hmm, I'm not really seeing how the forums could function efficiently with or without the voting system. Voting shouldn't essentially be a poll for what users think on a topic where you can just say your stance on an issue without inputting any reasoning, but on the other hand sometimes in long threads there's not much that hasn't been said already. Requiring people to contribute to a discussion for their vote to be counted would result in them either not saying anything or just writing something to feel like they're contributing without really adding anything to the discussion. Voting would help to reduce deadlock situations that might occur if one user keeps arguing about a topic and it might be hard to reach a consensus through discussion if most users already gave their thoughts on the matter previously and abandoned talking on the thread. :::The problem seems to be that if it's based around discussion it can go on indefinitely or until people are sick of it and stop talking but if it's based around voting it's more about numbers than it is about how strong your position is on the matter. I guess for any system to really work it assumes that people are willing to eventually come to a decision on a topic and keep participating. 21:24, April 28, 2015 (UTC) ::::Uhhh I used to be all about voting for proposals etc. until I was shown that the concept of "voting" wasn't exactly sound for a wiki. The idea of promoting voting without discussion is very unhealthy for a wiki. Say you were looking at two proposals and one was motioning for a "vote" while the other, a "discussion". In a vote, would you feel more urgency to make a decision right away? Sure this creates a consensus, but it is most likely an unstable one, filled with users who impulse decide and may have little to no understanding of a proposal's topic. And if we pit a bunch of votes in one section, how are users going to be able to respond to a misunderstanding? ::::On the flip side, how would it feel to be motioned into a "discussion"? To not so much vote, but deliver your own input and thorough analysis. You can formulate your own opinion on the topic. If you have a better idea, you can suggest it. You can ask questions. You're not immediately "forced" to make a decision. When you come to one, however, you're more likely to have a more sound stance because a discussion allows for the flexibility to have you come to that understanding. ::::I've seen (larger) wikis with voting concepts, and they almost never initiate a voting process without having some form of discussion first. Because if you jump straight to voting, it really leaves no room for a full input. Voting helps reach a decision, but discussion helps make sure that people know what the topic is. The whole idea behind gathering a consensus (at least from what I've seen) is that people, in a discussion, make a point on whether they agree or disagree with the topic anyways, and it can essentially count as a "vote". But much less emphasis is put on the "voting" so that people can be more focused on the reasoning behind their opinions rather than just the upfront concept of making a vote. 07:16, May 17, 2015 (UTC) (reset indent) I have no idea why you think discussions can't be made on a page with a proposal. That is totally allowed. If you don't agree with a proposal, have a question on it, don't like how it is worded, whatever, you are very welcome to write whatever you want without voting. Sure, that whole "discussion-only" method might have worked on some other, larger, wikis, but our history has shown us that it doesn't currently work here. The discussions get abandoned. If we implemented a system where users are allowed to vote on a proposal, but still raise any questions, discussions, ideas, or concerns, then proposals would actually get through and finished and things would get done. You claim that if we implement this aforementioned system, people will reach an "unstable" consensus, where they "decided on an impulse" and were "forced to make a decision"; but why would this be the case if everyone was given the chance to start any discussion they wanted or felt was necessary about the proposal? Having a voting system where we use will make things more organized so we know what everyone's final opinion is, but everyone will still be able to bring up any discussions they want about the proposal. 00:20, May 19, 2015 (UTC) Agenda *An "Etiquette" section rather than lumping it in with "Creating a topic" because, well, forum etiquette and creating a topic aren't really relative to each other. *"Be kind, (have courage)" -> I'd suggest changing this to "do not attack other users for their opinions" or something of the like otherwise people might get the idea that "being kind" means that users need to support their opinions all the time. *Let's not start sentences with "Also" because that just makes it sound like "Oops I forgot something let me tack it onto this paragraph" *Yeah a policy should not have a section that focuses entirely on creating a forum topic. That section...really has to be renamed. I'll think of one someday. Maybe. *"When creating a proposal, all necessary details should be given about what is being proposed." - too much "proposal" and not enough explanation. 07:30, May 17, 2015 (UTC)